Blog post4/21/16

(62)superatheist says April 21, 2016 at 5:08 pm

In reply to Chikoppi (60)

You do realize that the theory that you are proposing is scientifically incoherent, that is why scientists and philosophers are continuously struggling to understand the concept of being the same person over time (personal identity). Some say it is the body, others say it is the personality or consciousness that determines the self. Your hypothesis is that it is some combination of the two concepts. But when it is more fully examined it falls apart as a scientifically coherent theory. These same arguments existed with the ancient greeks and have been argued ever since then with many thinkers giving up the battle thinking there is no solution. I am coming from the same place that you are now. It has taken me years to begin to understand the problem, and even longer to understand the solutions the problem(s). One reason it has taken so long is because the solutions are so radically different that expected. Awaretheory may not be totally correct, and it is imcomplete but it is so much better than any other theory about consciousness, what makes you, and continues to make you, you over all of the changes that can occur to you over time. You apparently can not see it yet, but, awaretheory is the first actual coherent scientific theory about consciousness and ixperiencitness that exists. When I try to show you the supporting evidence for awaretheory or the problems with your theory you seem to ignore them. Your big point now seems to be that an experiment is a unique thing because its existence is unique in space and time, and with the matter and energy that it uses. I do not disagree with this at all. There are other unique aspects of an experiment as well, like who created the experiment, if it was the first experiment of its kind, what are or were the external events occurring in the environment locally or universally when it occurred. Or even the thoughts of the experimenters when they carried out the experiment, make it unique. The point of an experiment is seeing how the change in one or more variables changes one or more other variables. They are called as you know the independent and dependent variables. The independent variable that is very useful in awaretheory is the the concept of the structure and functioning of matter over time, the dependent variables that are most interesting to know about for awaretheory are consciousness and ixperiencitness. The ixperiencitness concept being like the me or self concept. It is a concept that ties together what you are through space and time. I think you have been saying that the me, self, or ixperiencitness exists during the life time of a person then is permanently destroyed at death. Am I wrong?

You seem to be saying that the uniqueness, you keep talking about, that exists for a person is derived from the uniqueness of the experiment that the person is. I am saying the important aspects of a person is their consciousness and ixperiencitness which is the consequence of the experiment not identical to the experiment itself. I have shown you in a few examples that uniqueness of a human experiment is not uniqueness of behavior and consciousness. This means that other bodies can produce the same behavior and consciousness, however, you still maintain that this is not enough, you still believe that the uniqueness of the “me” is not tied to the behavior, consciousness, feelings, emotions, self identity, skills, desires, etc., but to the placement in space, time, and use of specific matter. And when pressured on what physical factors changes the “me” you really do not know the boundary conditions for the specific “me” or for any other “me”. I think that you can see that if the predictions that awaretheory (the science of superimmortality) makes are true they produce one of the most important scientific theories ever created with very far reaching consequences for society, morals, and the future of conscious beings. And you can be part of that by simply discussing these ideas. You have already been helpful. Thank you! If the predictions of superimmortality are true, it means that you can exist any number of different times again after death, (or of course not at all), by natural processes or by deliberate actions of other conscious beings without ever knowing about your current life, would this thought scare or bother you? To me it is in a way scary, but also a great adventure.

In reply to Chikoppi (62) not completed or posted

Lets just go with observables. Let do the experiment with two different people but their bodies continue over the experiment to have the exact same structure and function in exact unison. That there are two different people in one experiment but they can be considered two separate experiments. Observable fact 1. There are two separate people distinct because at the very least they are a different places in space and made of different matter, but both are existing at the same time. Observable. fact 2. They have the same structure and functioning. Observable fact 3. Their behaviors are identical so they will call themselves by the same names and self identify in other ways like kind of jobs they have places that they live passwords that they use, all aspects of their memories will be the same, all of their knowledge about everything will be the same, they will show the same emotions and convey the same feelings. All of this at exactly the same time. Your observation is that they are different people so is mine. You can claim that there is nothing else to say about this experiment which makes you a behaviorist. Behaviorist do not like to talk about the consciousnesses because you can not observe what a person is exactly experiencing consciously. Some behaviorists even deny the existence of consciousness. This is just my opinion, but I believe that If I did not experience consciousness I would not exist for myself even though my body might act like it is conscious or aware of the external world . I thus postulate that I am conscious. Sky Captain (45) showed scientific articles giving evidence that we can know if another person is conscious or not. I think that Sky Captain articles only shows that a certain kind of functioning is occurring in the brain and this correlates to brains that they believe they have good reason to think are conscious.

I previously showed an example where body continuousness is not enough for personal identity. You agreed. I conjectured that if we took any one and changed the structure and functioning of their body to be identical to someone that was clearly not like them they would produce the personality, memories, self identity, etc., of this other person. You said that in the process the whatever uniqueness that was the original was destroyed. Now we can imagine changing this person's structure and functioning back to the way it was before the switch in structure and functioning. Now he is behaving exactly like the way he would have without this switch in structure and functioning. He may not have that uniqueness that he had to begin with, that you predicted was destroyed. But because he now has everything else he had before the change his friends and family will believe he is the same person unless they were told about the switch and believed as you. If this process happened to you, you would not know it because the structure and functioning of the brain before the switch will have had no awareness of the switch in structure and functioning that occurred.

If awaretheory is right then you are superimmortal which is a very big win for you. If you are right in our discussions then you win but unfortunately this make you mortal with a relatively few years yet to live (hopefully many decades).